S-tog routes history? (#663)
marcodu29 skrev 2004-11-07 23:10:
Hi everyone,
sorry for writing in English. I'd like to know if there's a web site
about S-tog routes' history.
- when was created the 20 minutes interval ?
- when were introduced the letters (A, B, E...) ?
- when I came to Copenhagen 12 years ago there were L and M routes.
These routes have been replaced by B+ and F+. Why ?
and so many more questions. :-)
Does someone know if such a web site exists? Thanks for help.
Marco from France
Re: S-tog routes history? (#664)
Familien Jørgensen skrev 2004-11-08 08:16:
Hello Marco
There was 20 minutes interval from the 15. May 1934 where the København H. - Hellerup was electrifized.
The letters were introduced in 1950. The first ones was A, B, C and F.
The letter-system has been changed more times. About 1993 the +-routes were introduced. The +-routes normally only drive in the daytimes at monday - saturday. The + means that they supply other normal routes.
Linie M was first changed to F+ at 15. september 2002. That was because it is the only of those routes which also drives at sundays.
A really good website about S-trains are there not yet but it problaly coming. Bus maybe those sites could interest you:
http://www.myldretid.dk
- news from the latest years and pictures
http://hjem.get2net.dk/arneu/s-bane.htm
- a bit history, routes and pictures
http://www.dsb.dk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Millenium/Page/StandardForside&c=Page&cid=1002716363235
- The official site with timetables, passenger and traffic information and news.
http://dk.trackmap.net/s
- Trackmap from 2001.
http://www.sbanen-i-billeder.dk/
- A new site with pictures. More are to coming.
http://thomasthorsen.dk/st/
- History and stations.
Many greetings
Leif Jørgensen
marcodu29 <...@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> sorry for writing in English. I'd like to know if there's a
> web site
> about S-tog routes' history.
>
> - when was created the 20 minutes interval ?
> - when were introduced the letters (A, B, E...) ?
> - when I came to Copenhagen 12 years ago there were L and M
> routes.
> These routes have been replaced by B+ and F+. Why ?
>
> and so many more questions. :-)
>
> Does someone know if such a web site exists? Thanks for help.
>
> Marco from France
>
Re: S-tog routes history? (#665)
Hjalmar Christiansen skrev 2004-11-08 10:47:
The 20 minutes interval has been one of the basic principles of the S-train
system, right from the beginning in 1934. The only exception was the end of
WW2, when much of the system ran on 40-minutes intervals.
The letters has been used since the early 50'ties. With exception of F for
(Frederiksberg-)Vanløse-Hellerup, the letters has been reshuffled several
times. Last major reshuffle was in 1989, when (among several other changes)
the L and M lines were introduced.
L, M (and K) was almost dublicates of the lines B, F and A, inducing 10-min
intervals on most stations in the daytime, monday-saturday. The S-train
department found this was a bit awkward, and changed the linedesignations to
B+ and A+ (M was kept, because this line ran on sundays as well). The Cx was
withdrawn, the Bx and Ex shortened to København H, and the H+ was
introduced.
Previously the S-train network has featured lines like Bb, Cc, Fx (and
several others). The idea is that extra trains in the daytime or rushhour is
designated with the same letter as the closest ordinary line, but with an
additional +, x or doubling of the same letter.
Hjalmar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: marcodu29 [mailto:...@...]
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 11:11 PM
> To: ...@...
> Subject: [S-tog] S-tog routes history?
>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> sorry for writing in English. I'd like to know if there's a web site
> about S-tog routes' history.
>
> - when was created the 20 minutes interval ?
> - when were introduced the letters (A, B, E...) ?
> - when I came to Copenhagen 12 years ago there were L and M routes.
> These routes have been replaced by B+ and F+. Why ?
>
> and so many more questions. :-)
>
> Does someone know if such a web site exists? Thanks for help.
>
> Marco from France
>
>
>
>
>
>
> S-togspostlistens hjemmeside: http://s-tog.myldretid.dk/
>
> Hvis du vil ophæve dit abonnement på denne gruppe, skal du
> sende du en e-mail til:
> ...@...
>
>
> Yahoo! Grupper Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SV: S-tog routes history? (#666)
marcodu29 skrev 2004-11-08 19:04:
> The 20 minutes interval has been one of the basic principles
> of the S-train system, right from the beginning in 1934. The
> only exception was the end of WW2, when much of the system ran
> on 40-minutes intervals.
That's very impressive. It is so simple and so easy to understand!
Basically you only need to remember three figures (02 22 42 for
instance) and everything is clear. You are sure to board a train 365
days a year.
> The letters has been used since the early 50'ties. With
> exception of F for (Frederiksberg-)Vanløse-Hellerup, the
> letters has been reshuffled several times. Last major
> reshuffle was in 1989, when (among several other changes)
> the L and M lines were introduced.
That would be nice if someone was able to gather more information
about the changes : which year, what changed, which letter was
introduced, which one was removed, etc. I'm sure it is quite
interesting. For example that should explain why there is no D or G
route nowadays.
I have found and read many documents (on the net) about S-trains to
Roskilde. What is the status of this project ?
Marco
Re: SV: S-tog routes history? (#667)
Lars Elmvang skrev 2004-11-08 23:41:
marcodu29 wrote:
>>The letters has been used since the early 50'ties. With
>>exception of F for (Frederiksberg-)Vanløse-Hellerup, the
>>letters has been reshuffled several times. Last major
>>reshuffle was in 1989, when (among several other changes)
>>the L and M lines were introduced.
> That would be nice if someone was able to gather more information
> about the changes : which year, what changed, which letter was
> introduced, which one was removed, etc. I'm sure it is quite
> interesting. For example that should explain why there is no D or G
> route nowadays.
Some of it is mentioned in the book "Københavns S-bane 1934-1984"
unfortunately only in danish
> I have found and read many documents (on the net) about S-trains to
> Roskilde. What is the status of this project ?
Totally laid to rest indefinitely (and all allocated funds are to be
used elsewhere)
--
Lars (the artist formerly known as Topper)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephisto køber ikke smøger.......
Mephisto konfiskerer i indgangen.......
Re: SV: S-tog routes history? (#668)
Jesper Kiby Denborg skrev 2004-11-08 23:55:
Hi,
I have noted letters already in 1936, but as far as I know they were only
used for an internal purpose:
A Valby-Klampenborg
B København H-Holte
C Frederiksberg-Hellerup(-Klampenborg)
Some changes happened in the following years, and in May 1950 the letters
were officially introduced:
A Vanløse-København H-Klampenborg
B København H-Holte
C Ballerup-Hellerup-(Holte in rush hours, Klamenborg at Sundays as needed)
F Frederiksberg-Nørrebro-Hellerup-(Klampenborg in rush hours and as needed)
More changes happened in the next years. The first x-line (rush hours
trains) was introduced May 26th 1963:
Bx Lyngby-København H-Taastrup (not stopping Bernstorffsvej-sterport and
København H-Hvidovre) (the line started in 1955 and was mentioned as
B-ekstra from 1956)
Lines with double letters was introduced September 30th 1979:
Bb og Cc.
A lot more could be said about the numbers, and it's indeed very
interesting. Hope someone else have some more knowledge to offer ;-)
Jesper
-----Original Message-----
From: marcodu29 [mailto:...@...]
Sent: 8. november 2004 19:03
To: ...@...
Subject: [S-tog] SV: S-tog routes history?
> The 20 minutes interval has been one of the basic principles
> of the S-train system, right from the beginning in 1934. The
> only exception was the end of WW2, when much of the system ran
> on 40-minutes intervals.
That's very impressive. It is so simple and so easy to understand!
Basically you only need to remember three figures (02 22 42 for
instance) and everything is clear. You are sure to board a train 365
days a year.
> The letters has been used since the early 50'ties. With
> exception of F for (Frederiksberg-)Vanløse-Hellerup, the
> letters has been reshuffled several times. Last major
> reshuffle was in 1989, when (among several other changes)
> the L and M lines were introduced.
That would be nice if someone was able to gather more information
about the changes : which year, what changed, which letter was
introduced, which one was removed, etc. I'm sure it is quite
interesting. For example that should explain why there is no D or G
route nowadays.
I have found and read many documents (on the net) about S-trains to
Roskilde. What is the status of this project ?
Marco
S-togspostlistens hjemmeside: http://s-tog.myldretid.dk/
Hvis du vil ophæve dit abonnement på denne gruppe, skal du sende du en
e-mail til:
...@...
Yahoo! Grupper Links
Re: S-tog routes history? (#680)
Familien Jørgensen skrev 2004-11-10 14:30:
S-Trains to Roskilde is an old history. It have been talked about it for several couple of years.
But there is a problem which is more important. That is that there is not enough place on the tracks between Copenhagen/Vigerslev and Høje Taastrup/Roskilde/Ringsted. In 1980-years there was build two tracks more between Høje Taastrup og Roskilde. So could the fast trains come faster forward without problems with the trains which have to stop in Hedehusene and Trekroner.
But that was not enough. Between Copenhagen/Vigerslev and Høje Taastrup there was still not place enough. So in the late 1990-years it was planned to build more tracks between Copenhagen and Roskilde.
- It could be build out with with two more tracks Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup and Roskilde - Ringsted.
- It could be build a new railway Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted.
- It could be a combinationen with two new tracks Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup and a new railway Høje Taastrup - Køge - Ringsted.
The first was what DSB wanted because it was here the passengers was. It was that which would have the lowest costs but the most expropriation.
The second was wanted of some others because there could be high speed trains driving there. It would have the lowest number of expropriation but the higest cost.
There was not much speak about the third.
At last the minister of transport Sonja Mikkelsen (socialdemocrat) decided it should be first. But then there came a new minister Jacob Buksti (socialdemocrat) how not want to build because of the high cost - 8-10.000.000.000 crowns for the first and about 15.000.000.000 crowns for the last. (Some means it was because it would need much expropriation in the area where he was voted.)
In steed beginn planning of S-train to Roskilde. It was planned to drive with trains with could drive on both the S-Railway (1.500 V DC in the owerhead-wire) and the longdistance-railway (25.000 V AC in the owerhead-wire). Between Copenhagen and Høje Taastrup the trains should drive on the S-Railway and change to the longdistance-railway in Høje Taastrup. On the tracks between Høje Taastrup and Roskilde would there be space enough because the longdistance-trains could not used enough because of there also have to drive on the tracks Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup where there is not place enough.
There was also talked about to let the special trains from Roskilde also driving to Copenhagen Airport, Kastrup. Between Vigerslev and the Airport they should drive on the longdistance-tracks. But that would cost more and was therefor moved in to the future.
The politicans like the plan because it would not cost so much. But DSB was not happy because it would not get more capacity on the tracks. What the politicans problaly not know was that nearly all trains drive forward to Holbæk, Kalundborg, Næstved, Nykøbing F., Odense and Jutland. And it would be stupid to let the from those places end in Roskilde.
Then there came a new minister Flemming Hansen (concervative). He lay the plan for and the parliament Folkeing nearly decided it. But then DSB say that they could not garanties that the new special trains would work as planned. Then the politicians stop the plan because they remember all the problems there have been with other new trains (IC3, IR4, resund-trains). (some say that DSB only say it because that they lost a licitation in Jutland where DSB and the minister was totally not agree)
So S-trains to Roskilde was dropped. Instead the politicians decided to use the moneys on other things which could give more capacity btween Copenhagen and Ringsted. To example better safety-systems and more tracks at some stations.
There have also been talked about a track more between Vigerslev and Roskilde. There is room for it and it would make the capacity a bit higher. But not much and not enough for the future.
Many greetings
Leif Jørgensen
Hjalmar Christiansen <...@...> wrote:
>
> > I have found and read many documents (on the net) about
> S-trains to
> > Roskilde. What is the status of this project ?
>
> The S-train to Roskilde project was aimed at relieving the
> desperate
> overloading of the mainline Valby-Høje Taastrup. This is a
> bit complicated,
> but I'll try to explain anyway.
>
> On the mainline, the passengerflow has its maximum between
> Roskilde and Høje
> Taastrup, because many people change at Høje Taastrup for
> the S-train
> stations until Valby. This creates space in the regional
> trains at the
> actual bottleneck Høje Taastrup-Valby.
>
> The idea was to accomodate a direct trainconnection between
> Roskilde (which
> is _the_ major station on Sjælland outside Copenhagen) and
> the S-train
> stations. This would have levelled the passengerflow in the
> regional trains,
> creating better economy for the DSB, happier passengers from
> Roskilde, and
> some relief in the bottleneck, because the (few) trains
> running only to and
> from Roskilde could be withdrawn.
>
> Really a no-loosers game, at a cost of only about 150
> million euro. At this
> pricetag the project would have been even commercially
> attractive (very
> unusual for railway projects).
>
> But, unfortunately, the project was abandoned in the
> aftermath of the 2001
> general elections. New politicians want new ideas and don't
> have the time to
> actually find out what's going on ... This was concerted by
> DSB rumoring
> about the price for the dual-system trains needed. The
> message was really
> that, the budget should be increased by some 20 million
> euro. But DSB didn't
> want it anyway, for some not-so-obvious reasons, and it
> should be scrapped
> alltogether.
>
> Thus, the money are now on a special bill, earmarked for other
> capacity-improving investments on the mainline Valby-Høje
> Taastrup. The
> problem is really, that nothing on this economic scale is
> left undone there.
> The negotiations now are to use the money on adjacent
> railwaylines to get
> some improvements in the reliability instead.
>
> This was the end of the only project with positive returns
> ...
>
> Hjalmar
>
>
>
> S-togspostlistens hjemmeside: http://s-tog.myldretid.dk/
>
> Hvis du vil ophæve dit abonnement på denne gruppe, skal du
> sende du en e-mail til:
> ...@...
>
>
> Yahoo! Grupper Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SV: S-tog routes history? (#681)
marcodu29 skrev 2004-11-10 20:54:
> S-Trains to Roskilde is an old history.
> It have been talked about it for several couple of years. (...)
Thanks to you for the details. Thanks also to Hjalmar :-)
When browsing recent messages I understood that someone was unhappy
with messages written in english and not in danish. I'm really sorry
about this. I can't write in danish. I tried automatic translators
but they proved really bad in either way.
Furthermore this place seems to be the only forum talking about S-
trains. I came in Denmark 12 years ago as a teenager and I stayed
about a month in Hillerød. I travelled to København H using S-tog
many times and I was very impressed about their simplicity. It is so
easy to use them! The whole system' timetables fit into a A4 sheet!
Now I'm working in a transport company in France and designing
routes is part of my job. S-trains is by far one of the most
interesting systems I know because it is efficient, easy to
understand and more attractive to non-users than many other systems.
Does someone know how many people are travelling by S-tog a day ?
and on which line ?
Marco
Re: SV: S-tog routes history? (#687)
Hjalmar Christiansen skrev 2004-11-11 10:03:
> Furthermore this place seems to be the only forum talking about S-
> trains. I came in Denmark 12 years ago as a teenager and I stayed
> about a month in Hillerød. I travelled to København H using S-tog
> many times and I was very impressed about their simplicity. It is so
> easy to use them! The whole system' timetables fit into a A4 sheet!
> Now I'm working in a transport company in France and designing
> routes is part of my job. S-trains is by far one of the most
> interesting systems I know because it is efficient, easy to
> understand and more attractive to non-users than many other systems.
>
> Does someone know how many people are travelling by S-tog a day ?
> and on which line ?
DSB has got all the figures on their homepage. Unfortunately, in danish
only. For the danes: look out for "sttællingen".
But the annual report is in english as well, and contains some statistics :
http://www.dsb.dk/servlet/BlobServer?blobtable=Download&blobcol=urldownload&
blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1086863230565&ssbinary=true&
filename=file.pdf
According to this, the system had 87.9 million passengers in 2003.
Hjalmar
PS: As I wrote (in danish) yesterday, I sincerely anticipate this discussion
is relevant for the list. I apologize for any inconvenience to the very few,
who are not able to read english.
Re: S-tog routes history? (#700)
Familien Jørgensen skrev 2004-11-17 10:39:
Things change fast. Things which were om ice last week are hot this week.
An institution under the ministry of traffic would now underseech four old alternatives to get more capacity:
- Two more tracks Copenhagen - Høje Taastrup and Roskilde - Ringsted.
- A new railway with two tracks Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted.
- One more track Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup
- S-trains to Roskilde.
This was a surprise which not made the majors in Glostrup and Roskilde happy. The major in Glostrup did not want expropriations in his area and the major in Roskilde would not have S-trains because it then would take to long time to get to Copenhagen.
The minister og traffic and the politicians in the parliament Folketinget has now decided that Trafikstyrelsen should go on with the untersuch. Before the end of 2005 they want to decided what of the possibilities which should be voted.
Many greetings
Leif Jørgensen
"Familien Jørgensen" <...@...> wrote:
>
> S-Trains to Roskilde is an old history. It have been talked
> about it for several couple of years.
>
> But there is a problem which is more important. That is that
> there is not enough place on the tracks between
> Copenhagen/Vigerslev and Høje Taastrup/Roskilde/Ringsted. In
> 1980-years there was build two tracks more between Høje
> Taastrup og Roskilde. So could the fast trains come faster
> forward without problems with the trains which have to stop
> in Hedehusene and Trekroner.
>
> But that was not enough. Between Copenhagen/Vigerslev and
> Høje Taastrup there was still not place enough. So in the
> late 1990-years it was planned to build more tracks between
> Copenhagen and Roskilde.
> - It could be build out with with two more tracks
> Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup and Roskilde - Ringsted.
> - It could be build a new railway Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted.
> - It could be a combinationen with two new tracks
> Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup and a new railway Høje
> Taastrup - Køge - Ringsted.
>
> The first was what DSB wanted because it was here the
> passengers was. It was that which would have the lowest
> costs but the most expropriation.
> The second was wanted of some others because there could be
> high speed trains driving there. It would have the lowest
> number of expropriation but the higest cost.
> There was not much speak about the third.
>
> At last the minister of transport Sonja Mikkelsen
> (socialdemocrat) decided it should be first. But then there
> came a new minister Jacob Buksti (socialdemocrat) how not
> want to build because of the high cost - 8-10.000.000.000
> crowns for the first and about 15.000.000.000 crowns for the
> last. (Some means it was because it would need much
> expropriation in the area where he was voted.)
>
> In steed beginn planning of S-train to Roskilde. It was
> planned to drive with trains with could drive on both the
> S-Railway (1.500 V DC in the owerhead-wire) and the
> longdistance-railway (25.000 V AC in the owerhead-wire).
> Between Copenhagen and Høje Taastrup the trains should drive
> on the S-Railway and change to the longdistance-railway in
> Høje Taastrup. On the tracks between Høje Taastrup and
> Roskilde would there be space enough because the
> longdistance-trains could not used enough because of there
> also have to drive on the tracks Copenhagen/Vigerslev - Høje
> Taastrup where there is not place enough.
>
> There was also talked about to let the special trains from
> Roskilde also driving to Copenhagen Airport, Kastrup.
> Between Vigerslev and the Airport they should drive on the
> longdistance-tracks. But that would cost more and was
> therefor moved in to the future.
>
> The politicans like the plan because it would not cost so
> much. But DSB was not happy because it would not get more
> capacity on the tracks. What the politicans problaly not
> know was that nearly all trains drive forward to Holbæk,
> Kalundborg, Næstved, Nykøbing F., Odense and Jutland. And it
> would be stupid to let the from those places end in
> Roskilde.
>
> Then there came a new minister Flemming Hansen
> (concervative). He lay the plan for and the parliament
> Folkeing nearly decided it. But then DSB say that they could
> not garanties that the new special trains would work as
> planned. Then the politicians stop the plan because they
> remember all the problems there have been with other new
> trains (IC3, IR4, resund-trains). (some say that DSB only
> say it because that they lost a licitation in Jutland where
> DSB and the minister was totally not agree)
>
> So S-trains to Roskilde was dropped. Instead the politicians
> decided to use the moneys on other things which could give
> more capacity btween Copenhagen and Ringsted. To example
> better safety-systems and more tracks at some stations.
>
> There have also been talked about a track more between
> Vigerslev and Roskilde. There is room for it and it would
> make the capacity a bit higher. But not much and not enough
> for the future.
>
> Many greetings
> Leif Jørgensen
>
Re: S-tog routes history? (#701)
Lars Elmvang skrev 2004-11-17 10:54:
Familien Jørgensen wrote:
> Things change fast. Things which were om ice last week are hot this week.
>
> An institution under the ministry of traffic would now underseech four old alternatives to get more capacity:
> - Two more tracks Copenhagen - Høje Taastrup and Roskilde - Ringsted.
> - A new railway with two tracks Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted.
> - One more track Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup
> - S-trains to Roskilde.
>
> This was a surprise which not made the majors in Glostrup and Roskilde happy. The major in Glostrup did not want expropriations in his area and the major in Roskilde would not have S-trains because it then would take to long time to get to Copenhagen.
>
> The minister og traffic and the politicians in the parliament Folketinget has now decided that Trafikstyrelsen should go on with the untersuch. Before the end of 2005 they want to decided what of the possibilities which should be voted.
>
> Many greetings
> Leif Jørgensen
And just to clear things up, Leif means Mayors :-)
--
Lars (the artist formerly known as Topper)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephisto køber ikke smøger.......
Mephisto konfiskerer i indgangen.......
Re: S-tog routes history? (#702)
Hjalmar Christiansen skrev 2004-11-17 11:24:
One thing is very interesting though. The S-train to Roskilde actually
implies both more trains, faster trains and more reliable trains to
Roskilde. How this can be interpreted as "longer time" to Copenhagen is
quite a question.
It might be because the time in the S-trains will be slightly longer, than
the present regional trains, between Roskilde and central Copenhagen. But
the project actually assumes that these passengers continue using the
regional trains.
Hjalmar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Familien Jørgensen [mailto:...@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:39 AM
> To: ...@...
> Subject: Re: [S-tog] S-tog routes history?
>
>
> Things change fast. Things which were om ice last week are
> hot this week.
>
> An institution under the ministry of traffic would now
> underseech four old alternatives to get more capacity:
> - Two more tracks Copenhagen - Høje Taastrup and Roskilde - Ringsted.
> - A new railway with two tracks Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted.
> - One more track Vigerslev - Høje Taastrup
> - S-trains to Roskilde.
>
> This was a surprise which not made the majors in Glostrup and
> Roskilde happy. The major in Glostrup did not want
> expropriations in his area and the major in Roskilde would
> not have S-trains because it then would take to long time to
> get to Copenhagen.
>
> The minister og traffic and the politicians in the parliament
> Folketinget has now decided that Trafikstyrelsen should go on
> with the untersuch. Before the end of 2005 they want to
> decided what of the possibilities which should be voted.
>
> Many greetings
> Leif Jørgensen
Re: S-tog routes history? (#703)
Sebastian Hansen skrev 2004-11-17 11:34:
Hjalmar Christiansen wrote:
>One thing is very interesting though. The S-train to Roskilde actually
>implies both more trains, faster trains and more reliable trains to
>Roskilde. How this can be interpreted as "longer time" to Copenhagen is
>quite a question.
>
>It might be because the time in the S-trains will be slightly longer, than
>the present regional trains, between Roskilde and central Copenhagen. But
>the project actually assumes that these passengers continue using the
>regional trains.
>
>Hjalmar
>
>
No. We shoud be very happy that the project has been cancelled.
And yes - it would require a slightly longer travelling time, but the
biggest problem is, that you would not be able to drive more intercity,
or regional- trains into Copenhagen. Besides the technical difficulties
would be to big, compared to the possible advantages.
I seriousely hope that a new doubletracked railway will make its way
into Copenhagen through Køge-Ringsted.
It would allow DSB to send their IC-trains that direction on entirely
new tracks at 200km/h.
Mvh Sebastian Hansen
Alle emner
